Can an experienced player gives us a summary of what's the "vibe" of the EVE online community these days? I was lightly involved ~15 years ago.
larnon 4 hours ago [-]
I started more than 15 years ago and recently got back into it. I would say that game has stagnated a lot more, character numbers may seem like it isn't that low but in reality most people who play it has around 5 accounts which they multibox with. So number of actual people who play it went really down. It is looking bleak for the future, and i can confidently say that it is all CCP's fault (called Fenris Creations now). They started aiming for short term gains and they probably realized themselves long ago it won't last so they started investing in other IP's but they were all mega failures so far.
ricardobayes 1 hours ago [-]
Keep an eye out for EVE vanguard, an Eve-related extraction FPS. It might scratch the itch for many who perhaps enjoyed the universe but don't want to (or can't) spend the enormous time to ramp up again.
larnon 19 minutes ago [-]
My comment included EVE Vanguard. I tried it. As someone who played FPS all his life starting from Quake 1 and Wolfenstein 3D, and all the AA and AAA FPS that came afterwards, EVE Vanguard feels like a money laundering scheme at this point. Nowadays a single person with access to he SOTA AI models and engines like Unreal, can make a much better and polished game in less time. It's gonna be an absolute DoA. The only reasons CCP is still able to operate is the addicts (mostly old men with no other hobby) that has spent thousands upon thousands on their accounts can't let go.
Loughla 1 hours ago [-]
EVE is on the list with Dwarf Fortress for me. I'm interested in it. I absolutely see the appeal of them, and wish I had played them instead of WoW back when I was 20.
But today? Ain't nobody got time for that.
sph 3 hours ago [-]
The thing I miss the most about Eve Online is the immersive free market economy. I long for a true, in-depth economic MMO more than the space veneer around the order book. Buy low, sell high. Specialize in industry, trading, transportation. Add a little bit of light PvP to inject chaos and it's more fun than playing the stock market.
(I am actually designing such a game, but I'm open to suggestions)
My main activity in the game was stealing loot from under carebears' noses to sell for profit. A true rat scouring the battlefields for scraps. That must say a lot about me.
knicholes 2 hours ago [-]
Dune: Awakening tried this. Was kind of fun while it lasted (and before the bug stole all of my resources I was trying to sell. The support was zero help on getting that resolved. That killed it for me immediately).
jvuygbbkuurx 2 hours ago [-]
Usually I don't care about the economy in MMOs, but in New World it was fun and different when it launched. I played almost exclusively for the economy. Buy and sell orders and separate auction houses between cities. There was many unexpected ways to make money with trading and crafting. The only major source of gold was a single main story quest early in the game, so if you weren't careful you would go broke and struggle. The economy wasn't that advanced, but it was fun watching the players ping pong back and forth with supply and demand.
sph 1 hours ago [-]
The crafting systems were so trivial that didn't make the economy game of New World particularly engaging. One core mechanic I seek is the division of labor; if everyone can and is expected to become a master in every skill, there is no niche to corner, and trivialises the experience.
There are very few games (actually, only EVE comes to mind with its skill system) that require you to specialize if you want to compete over everybody else.
squigz 2 hours ago [-]
What has changed about the EVE economy that you don't like?
> Buy low, sell high. Specialize in industry, trading, transportation
I did all of this, quite profitably and for quite a long time, in EVE?
sph 1 hours ago [-]
I don't like how EVE is run, and the pay-to-win mechanics added over the years to entice the whales.
I'm looking at the problem with the eyes of a prospective game dev, and saying that there should be more games focused on free market economy, which is often just a half-arsed mechanic on the side, not the core game.
azalemeth 4 hours ago [-]
I too would love to know the answer to this question. I loved Eve as a teenager / young adult. It was a brilliant burst of nerdery, and the first time I ever met someone who wrote linux kernel modules for a living.
I sometimes think about logging in (I think I ragequit likely in a pod inside a wormhole in the middle of nullsec) and then I realise that way madness (and much sunk time) lies.
chorizo 4 hours ago [-]
If you ever do wish to go back, request Signal Cartel to rescue you. Rescuing people from wormholes is exactly what they do. I was with them for years.
ceejayoz 3 hours ago [-]
Wait, EVE has a volunteer search-and-rescue group?
chorizo 3 hours ago [-]
Yes. If you are stranded in a wormhole, go to Services > Eve Scout Rescue at https://signalcartel.org/
WJW 1 hours ago [-]
I love it. I've never played the game myself but everything I read about it just makes it seem so much more "alive" than other MMOs.
mafuy 3 hours ago [-]
Not a player myself, but I recall there were some articles about a player organization that helped people who were stranded, or something along these lines. It sounded quite wholesome and fun.
efromvt 4 hours ago [-]
Yeah if I ever have the need to occupy an inordinate number of hours of my life again I’ll log back in, the temptation to dust of the account(s) arises sometimes. Think I managed to log off in lowsec but who knows!
HappySweeney 4 hours ago [-]
This is why I had to quit. I enjoyed it way too much and would spend nearly all my free time playing it, much to the detriment of the rest of my (non-professional) life.
causality0 4 hours ago [-]
It was kind of a blessing for me that I was forced to quit after they introduced PLEX and in doing created a conversion rate for ISK to dollars. Suddenly I was too aware of how worthless everything I was doing was. It's one thing to spend an evening grinding to buy that new ship, it's another when you know you were grinding for 73 cents an hour. Risking losing a ship you spent a week earning the ISK for is thrilling and scary, losing a ship you can replace for eight dollars is just annoying.
terrut 3 hours ago [-]
For me, that was the thing that made the game feel real. The feelings of actual dread and anger when losing a a ship made for some of my best and most intense gaming moments ever. The times I managed to come out on top were amazing.
Participating in the big corporation wars was boring in comparison to small scale stuff. In the big wars, I was just a pawn for the commanders that actually made decisions and could play a giant strategy game.
HappySweeney 2 hours ago [-]
I was a criminal, and me and my crew would pull in about $200 worth of isk daily
andrepd 3 hours ago [-]
> I enjoyed it way too much
Well if you enjoyed it it's was not a waste of time! Much human endeavour (and _all_ hobbies!) are ultimately pointless.
If it negatively affects other aspects of your life it's a different story though.
ohyes 3 hours ago [-]
I played in the early days and quit to have a life, came back for a bit to check it out.
Basically the community is people checking it out, bots, and the terminally addicted multi boxing 30 accounts.
reactordev 2 hours ago [-]
It's one guy and 40 alts now
Vaslo 4 hours ago [-]
I’ve played off and on for years - even multiple accounts, lots of hours, and a very helpful org, there was too much to do, and I quickly felt overwhelmed. I just can’t imagine them getting many new players, but it’s clear the game is 20+ years of upgrades and content.
cineticdaffodil 2 hours ago [-]
[dead]
est 5 hours ago [-]
Stackless python had such potential, it could be extremely useful in Agent era for long running tasks with durable state.
modern Python went in a somewhat different direction with asyncio, but with tasklet and continuation it could be a much powerful combo.
Cakez0r 4 hours ago [-]
> So how do you migrate 2.4 million lines of code?
> Very carefully, and in multiple stages.
That answer is so 3 months ago
fy20 4 hours ago [-]
"Claude, migrate the code. Do it fast. Make no mistakes."
ch0wn 4 hours ago [-]
* and commit no felonies
perching_aix 39 minutes ago [-]
highly optional
asimovDev 4 hours ago [-]
No, you gotta tell Claude that you believe in them
BurningFrog 3 hours ago [-]
Does Claude claim a gender/pronouns now?
ButlerianJihad 2 hours ago [-]
"Claudine" is a traditional feminine-gendered variant of the name.
It may be helpful to point out the definition of "Claude" as "lame; crippled" since the Roman Emperor and his gens.
limping, halting, lame, crippled
c. 347 CE – 420 CE, Hieronymus, Vulgate Matthew 11:5:
Caeci vident, claudi ambulant […] The blind see, the lame walk […]
As the sibling says, Claude was named after Claude Shannon, but TIL, thanks!
moffkalast 3 hours ago [-]
Or maybe there's multiple running in parallel.
Cantinflas 3 hours ago [-]
/goal code migrated to python 3
ufo 1 hours ago [-]
What happened with the stackless python? Did they get rid of all the stackless stuff?
santiagobasulto 4 hours ago [-]
When python started incorporating asyncio my initial reaction was fairly negative. I was behaving like a grumpy graybeard programmer ("kids these days should learn how to use concurrency instead of working on a new runtime altogether!" [0]).
But after using it for a production project I have to say I'm deeply satisfied and surprised by the maturity, quality of APIs and performance in general.
I was proven wrong and I'm happy about that :)
[0] Old man yell at clouds type of meme
greatgib 2 hours ago [-]
For me it is quite bad, but just we are now used to it.
In the same way that when you ask Windows users about all the bugs and problems they have with their system, they often say that they don't have any.
And ten seconds later, will click "ok" on a random crash popup they didn't even read the content of.
hluska 25 minutes ago [-]
You made a wild claim about ayncio and backed it up with a wild anecdote about windows and its users?
santiagobasulto 1 hours ago [-]
Can you elaborate? Why is Python asyncio bad?
VimEscapeArtist 40 minutes ago [-]
Most boring game ever made btw
p1anecrazy 5 hours ago [-]
> The classic example is division: in Python 2, 1 / 2 is 0; while in Python 3 it is 0.5.
Can someone kindly explain this?
edit: I misread it as “In Python 2 2.1/2 is 0, while in Python 3 it is 0.5”
smoe 5 hours ago [-]
From long ago memory: in Python 2, 1 / 2 did integer division. You had to do something like 1 / 2.0 if you wanted floating point division.
kingforaday 5 hours ago [-]
Spot on. Py2 was integer division, Py3 was true division. In Py2 you could get the true division with an `from __future__ import division` (Can't recall which Py2 version this became an import). Fun fact too: In Py3 you can do a // to get back to the floor division effect (e.g. 1 // 2 --> 0)
3eb7988a1663 3 hours ago [-]
PEP 238 lays out the story if anyone is curious. Well into the Python 3 transition, I still had a habit of multiplying the denominator by 1.0 to ensure it was a float.
It really speaks to how great the technical team can be. As crazy as it sounds Goldman Sacks and JP Morgan both maintained 2.7 Python as a core language until just a few years ago (yes, it's still used in production).
if anything, it only shows just how bad breaking backward compatibility is - py3 was released in '06, 20 years ago
lokar 4 hours ago [-]
I have run into other large (well known) financial companies on 2.x as well. They were using our old unsupported SDK and some long planned and communicated service API change broke them. They could not update to any recent SDK. I did gently point out their python version was 10+ years out of date.
mohamedkoubaa 4 hours ago [-]
Maybe the bank bailouts were a mistake
7bit 3 days ago [-]
Or insane
cyberpunk 5 hours ago [-]
Python is used as a kind of 'visual basic' language in a lot of banks especially in front-of-house trading software, e.g murex or frontarena. Migrations between major versions of these can take years, costs 100s of millions and involve thousands of devs. Mistakes can be _expensive_.
It is kind of 'insane' but also, meh..
There's more dragons out there than we've been led to believe :}
zulux 4 hours ago [-]
It's a great 'glue' language to tie a lot of systems together, especially when you think of MS Excel as a system.
elmo125 4 hours ago [-]
Although i really love or maybe have some memories, but isn't ms excel outdated , kinda, except the idea that it's always have easy fast solution
zbentley 3 hours ago [-]
> isn't ms excel outdated , kinda, except the idea that it's always have easy fast solution
“People shouldn’t use this tool, unless they want stuff quickly and easily”.
Excel isn’t outdated, and has no competitor (there are many things that compete on sub parts of what Excel does, but nothing that competes on all or even most of its capabilities). Business-side people are creating fairly massive application-type tools in Excel every day, by the thousands. If I had a nickel for every new, growing, modern business I’ve worked with that uses Google for an office suite but has a few departments with Windows/MS Office just so people can process data in Excel, I’d have a lot of nickels.
BurningFrog 3 hours ago [-]
Eve Online used to be great.
Is there anything similarly great around now?
hyperionultra 2 hours ago [-]
At the scale of EVE - no.
hugo1789 4 hours ago [-]
Seems to me like a migration that should have been done 15 years ago.
brianwawok 4 days ago [-]
Shocking to me they are still on Python. Over like moving the high CPU parts over to rust or something.
dygd 5 hours ago [-]
Some parts are in C++ and they even made it open source recently:
Does the game have performance issues? I don't see the need to rewrite unless there is a problem with it
NitpickLawyer 4 hours ago [-]
> Does the game have performance issues?
Yes, it has had huge concurrency issues for the entirety of its life. Their solution to large fights has historically been "let us know in advance pls", plus "move systems to beefier hw nodes" and "tidi" which stands for time dilation, where the "tick rate" of the whole server goes down and a fight takes 10-20-100x longer than it should.
It's an amazing concept of a game, but software wise it has been a mess since forever.
Rohansi 2 hours ago [-]
Switching away from Python would not fix this. EVE Online runs its world without instancing or shards, meaning you cannot scale out the simulation when a single zone is overcrowded. Pretty much every other online game avoids this problem by making it impossible to have thousands of players in the same area because networking every players' actions to thousands of players is always problematic
dyauspitr 43 minutes ago [-]
But one of EVE’s biggest selling points is specifically the 1000s of players in one area.
buddhistdude 3 hours ago [-]
I have to remember the "time dilation" excuse for the next production issue lol
edit: maybe the path to unlimited processing speed is to send a data center through space near speed of light. That's how it works right?
rvba 1 hours ago [-]
Universe must run on same software... since stuff since to slow down near black holes too
How much of that is down to processing time is unclear, but I think it's fair to say there is scope for improved performance.
Secondary to that, if you have general performance improvements then you can afford to run a smaller server cluster or smaller servers, reducing costs.
dragonwriter 2 hours ago [-]
My understanding is that the performance issues it has are more big-O issues of the problem space than issues that would meaningfully be resolved by the multiplicative speedup of moving to a more efficient language (the point at which they start to bite would shift a bit, though.)
swdunlop 5 hours ago [-]
Oh my yes. EVE Online can experience issues when a conflict in a solar system exceeds a certain number of players. Each system in EVE is a monolithic process, so, if a conflict gets out of hand, things get slow.
This is referred to as Time Dilation (TiDi) in EVE -- https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Time_dilation -- it's an interesting engineering rathole, Fenris f/k/a CCP has been pretty open about their stack, and the challenges that have built up.
Anything that speeds up EVE lets more players cram in without experiencing TiDi, and this might let the devs escape Stackless Python, which is another interesting engineer rathole. (It's ratholes all the way down, and this is the one that got EVE on my radar, and has kept it there.)
dcrazy 4 days ago [-]
> Every character, every skill point, every asset in every hangar, every ISK in every wallet was written in Python 2 code, and all of it must read back under Python 3 exactly as it was.
This task would be even more challenging under such a dramatic rewrite.
winrid 3 hours ago [-]
Python 3 will likely be faster by itself.
jubilanti 5 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
alexaholic 5 hours ago [-]
The Jehovah's Witnesses of programming
WarmWash 4 hours ago [-]
Can someone explain to my non-programmer self what the deal is with Rust?
Even not being in the tech space, I have long picked up on this quasi-religous aura around it.
alexaholic 3 hours ago [-]
Rust is a tool that allows one to build cars for humans to drive, in order to avoid certain accidents. If you try to put your dog in the driver’s seat of a Rust-powered car, Rust will stop you and ask you to produce proof that the dog is a qualified human driver.
The world is a pretty big place, so of course there are people who sometimes put their dog in the driver’s seat. Sometimes by accident, sometimes out of necessity, and sometimes because they think it’s mighty fun. Since Rust is strict about who or what gets to drive the car, these people build their cars using other languages.
Some Rust-heads, however, are pretty adamant that cars are to be driven by qualified humans only, and therefore keep nagging everyone about how all cars should be built with Rust.
gosub100 3 hours ago [-]
before rust, if you wanted to use a "fast" programming language you had to use C or C++, which are fraught with sharp edges. Rust gives you all the performance benefits of a compiled language, with barely any sharp edges.
llm_nerd 3 hours ago [-]
Using python for a purpose like this is extremely strange -- it clearly is just technology debt they've been carrying around from a silly decision over a decade ago -- so someone mentioned a contemporary, more acceptable alternative. I don't really see why this threatens some people, much less the incredibly stupid "religious" nonsense.
Rust has lots of inertia behind it, a fantastic core library, fantastic concurrency and scalability and excellent LLM support. If someone were greenfield building a service like this today, instead of being bound by poor decisions in the past, had infinite knowledge of every toolset and language and option, there is a very good chance they would settle on Rust. They might not, but it's definitely a finalist. So not remotely surprising someone would mention it.
That this caused someone to flip out is hilarious though.
CrazyStat 30 minutes ago [-]
> it clearly is just technology debt they've been carrying around from a silly decision over a decade ago
Almost three decades ago—development started in 1999 and the game was released in 2003.
3 hours ago [-]
goodmythical 4 hours ago [-]
i-use-arch-btw
nilamo 4 hours ago [-]
That's totally ok. "It works on my machine" with no info on what that machine looks like, is much worse
goodmythical 8 minutes ago [-]
skill issue
Ygg2 4 hours ago [-]
Python is very strange programming language for a MMORPG. I'd imagine they would write it in C++ or something. They don't quite explain what they use it for.
And yeah, using a faster but safe language could help immensely.
flohofwoe 4 hours ago [-]
Python is just a part of the tech stack, there's also a lot of C/C++ code. How much Python vs C/C++ is hard to say from the outside though, but the parts that have been open-sourced are pretty much all C/C++:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegiance_%28video_game%29
Say "stackless tasklet" five times fast.
But today? Ain't nobody got time for that.
(I am actually designing such a game, but I'm open to suggestions)
My main activity in the game was stealing loot from under carebears' noses to sell for profit. A true rat scouring the battlefields for scraps. That must say a lot about me.
There are very few games (actually, only EVE comes to mind with its skill system) that require you to specialize if you want to compete over everybody else.
> Buy low, sell high. Specialize in industry, trading, transportation
I did all of this, quite profitably and for quite a long time, in EVE?
I'm looking at the problem with the eyes of a prospective game dev, and saying that there should be more games focused on free market economy, which is often just a half-arsed mechanic on the side, not the core game.
I sometimes think about logging in (I think I ragequit likely in a pod inside a wormhole in the middle of nullsec) and then I realise that way madness (and much sunk time) lies.
Participating in the big corporation wars was boring in comparison to small scale stuff. In the big wars, I was just a pawn for the commanders that actually made decisions and could play a giant strategy game.
Well if you enjoyed it it's was not a waste of time! Much human endeavour (and _all_ hobbies!) are ultimately pointless.
If it negatively affects other aspects of your life it's a different story though.
Basically the community is people checking it out, bots, and the terminally addicted multi boxing 30 accounts.
modern Python went in a somewhat different direction with asyncio, but with tasklet and continuation it could be a much powerful combo.
> Very carefully, and in multiple stages.
That answer is so 3 months ago
It may be helpful to point out the definition of "Claude" as "lame; crippled" since the Roman Emperor and his gens.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/claudus#Latin
https://bible.usccb.org/bible/matthew/11?5Some examples of women named Claude: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Pompidou
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Bessy_(dancer)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Sarraute
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Jade
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Shannon
But after using it for a production project I have to say I'm deeply satisfied and surprised by the maturity, quality of APIs and performance in general.
I was proven wrong and I'm happy about that :)
[0] Old man yell at clouds type of meme
Can someone kindly explain this?
edit: I misread it as “In Python 2 2.1/2 is 0, while in Python 3 it is 0.5”
https://peps.python.org/pep-0238/
It is kind of 'insane' but also, meh..
There's more dragons out there than we've been led to believe :}
“People shouldn’t use this tool, unless they want stuff quickly and easily”.
Excel isn’t outdated, and has no competitor (there are many things that compete on sub parts of what Excel does, but nothing that competes on all or even most of its capabilities). Business-side people are creating fairly massive application-type tools in Excel every day, by the thousands. If I had a nickel for every new, growing, modern business I’ve worked with that uses Google for an office suite but has a few departments with Windows/MS Office just so people can process data in Excel, I’d have a lot of nickels.
Is there anything similarly great around now?
https://github.com/carbonengine
https://fenris.com/carbon
Yes, it has had huge concurrency issues for the entirety of its life. Their solution to large fights has historically been "let us know in advance pls", plus "move systems to beefier hw nodes" and "tidi" which stands for time dilation, where the "tick rate" of the whole server goes down and a fight takes 10-20-100x longer than it should.
It's an amazing concept of a game, but software wise it has been a mess since forever.
edit: maybe the path to unlimited processing speed is to send a data center through space near speed of light. That's how it works right?
How much of that is down to processing time is unclear, but I think it's fair to say there is scope for improved performance.
Secondary to that, if you have general performance improvements then you can afford to run a smaller server cluster or smaller servers, reducing costs.
This is referred to as Time Dilation (TiDi) in EVE -- https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Time_dilation -- it's an interesting engineering rathole, Fenris f/k/a CCP has been pretty open about their stack, and the challenges that have built up.
Anything that speeds up EVE lets more players cram in without experiencing TiDi, and this might let the devs escape Stackless Python, which is another interesting engineer rathole. (It's ratholes all the way down, and this is the one that got EVE on my radar, and has kept it there.)
This task would be even more challenging under such a dramatic rewrite.
Even not being in the tech space, I have long picked up on this quasi-religous aura around it.
The world is a pretty big place, so of course there are people who sometimes put their dog in the driver’s seat. Sometimes by accident, sometimes out of necessity, and sometimes because they think it’s mighty fun. Since Rust is strict about who or what gets to drive the car, these people build their cars using other languages.
Some Rust-heads, however, are pretty adamant that cars are to be driven by qualified humans only, and therefore keep nagging everyone about how all cars should be built with Rust.
Rust has lots of inertia behind it, a fantastic core library, fantastic concurrency and scalability and excellent LLM support. If someone were greenfield building a service like this today, instead of being bound by poor decisions in the past, had infinite knowledge of every toolset and language and option, there is a very good chance they would settle on Rust. They might not, but it's definitely a finalist. So not remotely surprising someone would mention it.
That this caused someone to flip out is hilarious though.
Almost three decades ago—development started in 1999 and the game was released in 2003.
And yeah, using a faster but safe language could help immensely.
https://github.com/carbonengine
googled it so this becomes a PSA: https://simonwillison.net/2026/Aug/25/eve-online-move-to-pyt...
so it's neither, it's their own: https://github.com/carbonengine/scheduler
so that's interesting